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Author Topic: Pathfinder/4e  (Read 1604 times)

kenada

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Pathfinder/4e
« on: April 05, 2010, 09:38:42 AM »
For some reason, I want to try to convert some Paizo modules to 4e. While I like the old 3.5e fluff in Pathfinder, prep for it sucks horribly.

If a creature uses any spells or spell-like abilities, I have to copy those out of the PFRPG because I’ll be damned if I have perfectly memorized every single spell in the game. The same is true of any non-passive feats the monsters might possess. It all adds up to really lengthen the time it takes to prep for a module. And yes, I know that converting a module to a different system will tend to increase prep time. Paizo’s modules are great, but I would prefer something of that quality for 4e instead. :(
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 09:41:27 AM by kenada »

Measure Zero

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Re: Pathfinder/4e
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2010, 08:59:41 PM »
On a different note, how can 4e be fixed so that combats don't take so long?  I don't like it when fights end instantly thanks to an "I win" spell like Color Spray, but balanced 4e combats tend to drag on forever, hampering the progress of the story.  Is there a simple fix for this that maintains the same level of challenge, but maybe halves the length of combat?

kenada

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Re: Pathfinder/4e
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2010, 10:11:38 PM »
Maybe it would suffice to lower HP overall? I don’t think cutting it in half is a good idea because limited HP made previous editions exceptionally dangerous. Maybe lowering it by 35% would be better? That would allow a low level defender to still survive a crit on a high damage attack (2d6+3) when at max HP at lower levels. I’ve not thought too deeply about any other problems that such a change could cause though.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 10:24:39 PM by kenada »

Measure Zero

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Re: Pathfinder/4e
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2010, 11:22:07 AM »
I want the combats to take half as long each, without still maintaining the control on the difficulty level of the encounter that 4e gives me.  So whatever I do to the monsters, I have to do to the PCs as well.  It's perfectly fine for a monster to go down in two shots instead of four, but I don't think that works well for a PC.  I think it would mean the death of a party member when PCs lose initiative.

kenada

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Re: Pathfinder/4e
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2010, 12:14:56 PM »
Hmm, yeah. HP reductions make focus firing one target extremely dangerous.

kenada

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Re: Pathfinder/4e
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2010, 12:27:53 PM »
I created a post on another forum I visit to solicit ideas. I expect to receive a fair share of ‘you suck at playing the game’ and ‘not a problem for us’ responses.

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Re: Pathfinder/4e
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2010, 12:35:03 PM »
I like the idea of 'rolling 5' here, allowing players to strategize using advance knowledge of rolls, also on that page some good advice concerning minions.
There's another idea to use positive reinforcement to encourage quicker play by the players.


Messing with hitpoints does seem a bit risky.

kenada

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Re: Pathfinder/4e
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2010, 12:47:14 PM »
I saw the roll 5 thing, but I’m not sure how I like it.

I’ve considered moving adding a timer. I’m not a fan of positive reinforcement, so if I did add one, people would lose their turn (only taking autodamage and rolling saving throws) if they did not act in time.

Edit: I wanted to add that delaying is a completely reasonable thing to do if you aren’t sure what you want to do at that time. It might even be more realistic for people to have to pause a moment while fighting goes on around them to collect their thoughts and decide how best to act.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 12:50:31 PM by kenada »

Measure Zero

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Re: Pathfinder/4e
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2010, 09:55:02 AM »
Those responses seemed pretty reasonable.  Positive reinforcement via attack roll bonuses is a good idea, and I have considered the whole minion thing too.

The problem with minions vs standard monsters is this: you either get monsters that die in one shot, to the weakest attacks the party has, or monsters that take four or five normal attacks to kill.  With no AOEs around, they are balanced, except minions can create more obstacles than a standard monster.  Once a monster is identified as a minion, it can be almost literally pushed over and be killed.

Using a ton of minions means that AOE powers that are weak or balanced for combat vs standard monsters become overpowered vs standard combats.  This is because of the four minions = one standard monster conversion; it's like aoe is hitting the same standard monster four times (or more, in the case of weak AOEs like dragonborn breath).  AOEs are similarly less powerful when used against elites and solos compared to how they work against standard monsters.  Coincidentally, elites and solos tend to make combats drag out longer just by being there, so they would be used less under this encounter design philosophy, making AOEs even better to use.  Assuming that the classes were more or less on even footing to begin with, this means that a sorcerer would be automatically better than a rogue, for instance.  I don't like this outcome.

The biggest problem with just reducing all HP values is a little bit more subtle, and one of the posters over there almost had it.  He said that the issue was burst damage, but that's not quite all there is to it.  The issue with burst damage is that monsters and PCs in 4e are balanced so that monsters almost always have access to their full HP, while PCs only have access to a small portion of it.  The PCs then get access to the rest of their HP through powers and items that let healing surges be spent.  By halving the length of combats, you effectively double the value of each individual action.  The monsters "heal" automatically, but PCs will have to spend twice as much of their action value on healing as usual to stay up.  And with the lower HP values, PCs will hit 0 hp more often, and have to spend more actions standing up and recovering from being "killed".  To top it off, monsters will get something like 1/2 an extra attack on average because PCs will take slightly longer to kill them (ie a monster that took 5 attacks to kill will now take 3, but the actual value of those 3 actions is 6 actions from the old setup).  All of these add up to favoring monsters over PCs.

There are some things that favor PCs, however.  In a 10 round fight, a PC usually gets to use about 4 encounter powers and one daily power, then 5 or so at-wills.  In a 5-round fight, the PC need not resort to at-wills, meaning that the PC's damage is increased dramatically if he lives long enough to get all of the attacks off.  PCs also tend to use more action points than monsters, and action points are twice as good in the new system.

These things might balance out, but they make the first few rounds of combat much more important for PC survival then they are already (and they are pretty important).  To smooth this out, it might be good to boost healing: eg. make all minor action heals into free actions, all standard action heals into minor actions, give everyone quickdraw, let second wind be used while unconscious, remove the one-per-round cap on using leader healing powers, etc.  With the boosted healing, then there would need to be a nerf to reduce the impact of encounter and daily powers, such as capping it to 2 encounter powers and 1 daily power per encounter, or make such powers take twice as long to recharge (ie two encounters or two extended rests). 

Measure Zero

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Re: Pathfinder/4e
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2010, 10:18:16 AM »
Here's another way to look at why "use more minions" isn't a very good solution.  Strikers tend to target single monsters, making them less powerful vs minions that would take extra attacks to chew through.  Controllers tend to have AOEs, so minions are not really a problem.  By using many more minions, you make controllers (and sorcerers) more powerful than strikers.

Conversely, using more elites and solos makes sorcerers less powerful, but controllers are still good (possibly even better) because single target control (like "dazed until the end of your next turn") becomes more valuable vs harder monsters.  In one direction you find rangers being totally dominant, and in the other direction it's sorcerers.  You need to stay in the middle if you want all strikers to be on more or less even footing with each other.  But you can't just stay in the middle, because those standard monsters give controllers grief.

If you want all classes to be viable, you need to have a variety of different combat setups.  If you don't care about this, the players should be warned that some classes will be better than others in general.

kenada

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Re: Pathfinder/4e
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2010, 03:31:35 PM »
Hmm

BobChuck

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Re: Pathfinder/4e
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2010, 04:34:13 PM »
Just to chime in here:

From what I understand, Controllers are almost completely unnecessary for a "typical encounter". It's just more effective to have one leader and a bunch of strikers, with maybe a Protector to herd things.

Saying "adding more minions would shift the balance to favor controllers" is incorrect. It would be more accurate to say "adding more minions would shift the balance to no longer favor Strikers over every other class type", which seems to be a good thing, yes?

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Re: Pathfinder/4e
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2010, 11:32:20 PM »
More minions means that dragonborn and anyone with an AOE get stronger.  Most strikers can manage at least an encounter AOE, and sorcerers get them at-will.  It doesn't make strikers less good, it just shifts the balance away from rangers and toward more versatile strikers.

More elites and solos shifts the balance away from sorcerers and towards rangers.  It's in this situation that I think warlocks do the best, too.

Overall, I think that strikers do the best vs standard monsters, because killing them is a viable method to mitigate damage done to the party.  This sort of thing just cannot be done with raw killing power when facing a solo monster, because they deal just as much damage at 1/4 max hp as they do at full hp.  In fact, they usually do more when at low hp.

Controllers get stronger the fewer standard monsters are present relative to elites, solos, and minions.  A typical controller can kill minions fast, and the two-monster-in-one idea behind elites means that controlling an elite for one round is twice as good as controlling a standard monster for one round.  I think that the thing that makes controllers a little weaker than strikers is the lack of elite + minion encounters

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Re: Pathfinder/4e
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2010, 06:57:40 AM »
With a caveat that I have not read the dmg in detail, is there any reason why elite + minions aren't used?  It might make more sense for Elite + standard(s) + minions storywise, I'm guessing...

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Re: Pathfinder/4e
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2010, 03:17:06 PM »
I think that minions are broken

When they are used excessively, the dragonborn race becomes much more powerful than every other race.  Think of it like this: killing four minions is supposed to be the same as killing one standard monster.  If 6ish minions happen to be standing in a 3x3 square, a dragonborn can probably kill 4 of them in one breath.  That is a minor action attack, that effectively killed a standard monster in one shot.  It's situational, but compare it to the elf's racial power.  The elf's power turns a miss into a hit roughly half of the time.  If it's always used with strong daily powers or encounter powers, I estimate that it takes about four uses of the elf's power to do enough damage to kill a standard monster.  If you have 8+ minions in every combat, the dragon breath is bound to have a much larger impact.

In addition, minions are supposed to be easy to pick out from among the enemy combatants.  As a result, they can be killed first to clear up the field, and in subsequent rounds the monsters lose their ability to gain flanking bonuses and other bonuses that require teamwork.  The monsters have fewer tactical options, and the combat difficulty ends up being less than it should be.

I don't really have an issue with using more elites, except that the extra powers elites get usually make them more complicated to play, thus increasing combat time.