Important Information

[Atreys]

I also want to remind people about soft cover. Unlike 4e, all creatures are eligible to provide cover to the target. This means that shooting into melee while you are behind a party member who is engaged in melee with the target grants a +4 AC bonus to the target and gives you a −4 penalty to shoot him.

Hi; following your conversation...  these +4 AC and −4 penalty are the same thing, right?  That is probably the case.

[kenada]

Nope, they’re two different modifiers.

• Creatures between the attacker and his target provide Soft Cover (granting +4AC to the target of an attack but none of the other benefits of Cover).
• An attacker shooting a target engaged in melee combat with an adjacent creature takes a −4 penalty to his attack roll unless he has the Precise Shot feat.

For example, let’s say we have a ranger (without Precise Shot) and a fighter attacking a kobold.

Scenario 1

.....
.k...
..f..
.....
....r

When the ranger attacks in scenario 1, the kobold gains +4 AC due to the Soft Cover provided by the fighter and takes a −4 penalty for shooting into melee combat.

Scenario 2

.....
.k...
f....
.....
....r

When he attacks in scenario 2, he only takes a −4 penalty for shooting into melee combat because the fighter does not provide Soft Cover.

Scenario 3

.....
.k...
.....
.f...
....r

In scenario 3, the fighter is attacking the kobold with a reach weapon, so the ranger does not take a −4 penalty to attack the kobold. The fighter is also not in the way of the ranger’s shot, so he does not provide Soft Cover either.

[kenada]

I added a note about alignment.

[BobChuck]

Yeah... I'm starting to understand why you don't want us creating characters until we get there. There's A LOT of background info that we just don't have.

[kenada]

My originally reason was because I always enjoyed spending an hour or two making characters with everyone in 3e. However, as I’ve acquired information, I’ve refrained from posting it because I planned on talking about it at the first session.

The order of business for the first session will be:

• Talk about the differences between 3.5e, 4e, and Pathfinder. I’m hoping that people who have already played Pathfinder can offer any insight.
• Talk about the campaign setting and the setup for the AP.
• Make characters.
• Start the playing.

[kenada]

I would like to add that I do expect people to read the Council of Thieves Players Guide.

[BobChuck]

I have read it.

Well, I read the introduction. I read most of the races section. I skimmed most of the classes section, only really reading the Sorcerer, Wizard and Rogue sections (Wizard section said that certain familiars might be more useful due to skills listed in Rogues section). I skimmed the environs section several times.

I read all the traits. Several times, actually, in an effort to find something that fits. I'm not a child of infamy, I'm not an infernal bastard, I'm not a shadow child; I have no idea what the pathfinder society is; I could be a conspiracy hunter or westcrown firebrand but my character just doesn't care all that much, and I can't be diabloist raised.

No where in this player's guide does it mention anything about Lawful being even remotely problematic. Not even in the paladin section. Not trying to make an issue or anything, just curious as to why it's problematic.

[kenada]

Well, I read the introduction. I read most of the races section. I skimmed most of the classes section, only really reading the Sorcerer, Wizard and Rogue sections (Wizard section said that certain familiars might be more useful due to skills listed in Rogues section). I skimmed the environs section several times.

The most important parts are the ones on Westcrown (and other background information), races, and your particular class.

I read all the traits. Several times, actually, in an effort to find something that fits. I'm not a child of infamy, I'm not an infernal bastard, I'm not a shadow child; I have no idea what the pathfinder society is; I could be a conspiracy hunter or westcrown firebrand but my character just doesn't care all that much, and I can't be diabloist raised.

Choosing a CoTPG trait is not optional. The goal of the players should be to make interesting characters within the constraints of the setting. It is not to make whatever character they feel like making, hoping that it can be wedged into the game.

I could be a conspiracy hunter or westcrown firebrand but my character just doesn't care all that much

Part of the AP hook is that characters have something they don’t like about Westcrown and want to change it. Characters who don’t care aren’t going to be interested in trying to change Westcrown.

I can't be diabloist raised

You can, if you come from Cheliax.

No where in this player's guide does it mention anything about Lawful being even remotely problematic. Not even in the paladin section. Not trying to make an issue or anything, just curious as to why it's problematic.

It’s discussed in the actual adventure path, and it is a topic I plan on discussing when we create characters (provided that we had some Lawful characters in the group).

The AP hook is that you are being recruited to help make Westcrown a little better for everyone and return the city to its past glory (kind of like a neighborhood watch). The problem is that the government considers this seditious activity. If role played properly, a Lawful-aligned PC that hasn’t rationalized his participation is either going to find himself frequently violating his alignment, or he will choose not to participate and may instead report everyone else to the authorities.

Edit: If I am, I don’t mean to come off like a hardass about this. I hope that things will clear up at our first session.

I expect to spend about 10–15m talking about the differences between Pathfinder and both 3.5 and 4e; then I expect to spend ~30m going over the setting itself before we get to character creation. After character creation (but before people have selected traits), I want to do a Q&A session about the characters to get a feel for what people are making and answer any questions.

[BobChuck]

Alright, I've thought about it, and I'm going to shelve my character. Do everything during the first session along with everyone else.

I do not have the campaign information, and that is apparently far more relevant for this adventure path than it is for most campaigns. So I should start from the beginning.

I will be planning on some kind of spellcaster, with emphasis on controllery and buff spells. I could also go Melee Warrior, if the stats permit.

I'll still print off my character and bring it, of course, along with the Druid, Barbarian, and Fighter I've stated up. I also take requests. Having a first level character that is all stated up and complete can be a great help when building a similar one from scratch. Maybe I should stat up a rogue and a paladin, to fill in some blanks.

[kenada]

Alright, I've thought about it, and I'm going to shelve my character. Do everything during the first session along with everyone else.

Hoo-ray! Everyone loves rolling dice!

I’d like to note that I don’t appear to have allowed rerolls of the initial array in my info post. I’m not inclined to change that at this point because I think it makes things more interesting.

I do not have the campaign information, and that is apparently far more relevant for this adventure path than it is for most campaigns. So I should start from the beginning.

Think of it less like creating a character for a traditional D&D game and more like creating a character for a World of Darkness game. No, it’s not going to be emo and shitty like WoD, but the setting is important. You aren’t just hacking down monsters and stealing their shit. You’re working to try to make your city a nicer place to live.

I'll still print off my character and bring it, of course, along with the Druid, Barbarian, and Fighter I've stated up. I also take requests. Having a first level character that is all stated up and complete can be a great help when building a similar one from scratch. Maybe I should stat up a rogue and a paladin, to fill in some blanks.

For what it’s worth, I expect you’ll end up being a valuable resource for people making characters. I’ve read through the PFRPG (except for the appendices, which I’ll finish off tonight), and while I do have a pretty solid grasp on the fundamentals of the rules, I’ve no where near the knowledge you do on what makes an effective character for a particular class.

[BobChuck]

Okay, regarding stats: can we swap with another player? I'm all for some degree of randomness, but everyone has classes they just don't like.

On character creation: most of my knowledge comes from two sources.
Treantmonk's Guides, which has through and high-quality breakdown of the Bard, Druid, Monk, Ranger, and Wizard, and what does and doesn't work for them so well.
DPR Olympics, which is basically a classic optimization thread. It has a lot of problems (which are "discussed" in typical forum fashion) and it by no means the complete, end-all-be-all answer, but it serves as a good starting point.

I want to emphasize that it is not the final answer to anything. For one thing, buff spells and items aren't allowed, which eliminates spellcasters entirely.
For another thing, it assumes that the characters are able stand in place and full-round every time (including on the first/surprise round), which can be misleading.
Example: Two Weapon Fighting rogues do better in such a scenario, but in any fight that has one round of movement (more than 5ft step) for every five rounds of full-rounding, a Two-Handed, Power-Attacking rogue does alot better. Charging Sneak Attack ftw!
Finally, it's all about combat, so any non-combat roles a character could fill are completely ignored.
But for all its limitations, it's still very helpful.

[kenada]

Okay, regarding stats: can we swap with another player? I'm all for some degree of randomness, but everyone has classes they just don't like.

While I would be surprised if that happened in practice, I’ll update OP so that each person gets his choice of two arrays.

[kenada]

I took the two arrays thing back out because I think allowing it is too accommodating of character optimization.

No one is forced to be any particular class. It’s entirely reasonable to be a less optimal version of what you want to be. Your character’s guidance counselor may have said that you should be a fighter, but 12 charisma be damned, you want to be a bard anyway.

[kenada]

I added a bit of an introduction outlining my expectations and goals with character creation.

Since Rob has already decided to roll with everyone else, I just wante to reiterate that everyone will be creating a character at the first session. Rob, if you want to bring example characters, that’s fine. Obviously, existing generated characters are ineligible for play unless one can match his stats to it (or adapt the character to his rolls).

Changes Currently Under Consideration

• Starting wealth — Half-or-better rolling methods my spidey sense tingle.
• Randomly rolling campaign traits — This is under consideration, but it is tending towards “probably not”.

[BobChuck]

Rolling traits = bad. For instance: I get stats that say "fighter or barbarian with big two-handed weapon and not much brains", so I roll a d10 on the "combat" list and get "fencer". I guess I could [/i]maybe[/i] make that work, but it doesn't make sense.

Rolling the campaign-specific trait might work. It would have to be done at the same time as ability scores though, in order to guide character creation instead of getting in the way. Still, I'm not sure what a barbarian would do with the "infamous actor" trait.

Wealth is a very interesting problem.

Half-or-better will likely lead to us having actual consumables like healing potions or 5-charged wands, because we've got the money. But we are first level and thus rather squishy, plus maybe only 3 players the first session, so having those might be important.

At the same time, a straight roll can still create the above problem AND can lead to equipment-dependent classes, like the Fighter, getting stuck with sub-par or non-ideal equipment.Which, of course, its sort of the point of rolling - makes things interesting. Also can provide some guidance into how the character lives.

Both are valid choices, and offer different benefits. Straight rolling will negatively impact our survival, but could create RP choices, while half-or-better means more resources - thus less likely to die - but also that our characters aren't as desperate for money.

Whatever you decide, you should put a lock on rule changes at some point. Say, this Friday, which would be a week before the game starts. Then only change them as the game requires.