Welcome, Guest. Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Author Topic: Pathfinder  (Read 5485 times)

BobChuck

  • Guest
Re: Pathfinder
« Reply #75 on: January 25, 2010, 05:42:39 PM »
yeah. With 4th ed, there's no point in thinking about your character class or choice, because they are all basically identical.

Want to play a tank? okay, you must take choice of any threat ability that works the same, any armor that is as good as you can use, any kind of weapon that does the same damage, and any damaging power that uses your weapon damage plus your ability score. Once you've picked these initial things, every single future thing you get ever can be determined automatically, because each new thing has a special bonus that only applies if you took the matching base ability, so anything else is clearly a waste of time.

And it's like that for every single class. For any given ability, it's 90% identical to all the other options available to every class in your archetype, with a tiny bit of variation, and each of those classes gets the same number of abilities.

It's simple, it's fair, it's straightforward. It also requires no thought at all. You only get about three or four actual choices throughout your characters entire career - everything else could be picked automatically by a computer program.

With 3.0/3.5/pathfinder, there's a BIG difference between a Fighter with a greatsword, a Fighter with a shield and longsword, and a Fighter with a spiked chain. They'll all pick full plate, but so does everyone who can use it, and they'll all get certain really nice feats like toughness and weapon focus. But everything else, their gear, their enchantments, their feat and skill selection, and their ideal ability scores, will be completely different.

Greatsword guy wants high str and con, and feats that do MOAR damage. Sword and Shield wants 13 str (for power attack) and decent con, with most focus on dex, and goes two-weapon fighting and shield bash. chain fighter wants high str, but needs good dex and int, and focuses on combat maneuvers.

They all do different things, too. Greatsword guy charges in head on, chasing after anything shiny;Sword and Shield puts himself in the center of a big clump and swings away happily; spiked chain darts in and out, disabling the big threats and creating opportunities for other characters.

They play differently. Pathfinder lets you build many distinctly different Fighters, while 4th ed lets you build exactly one kind of protector out of 4-5 classes - there's so little variation its funny.

Of course, it's easy to screw up and make something that doesn't do anything well, but that's part of the fun - choices have risk. If everything was equally good all the time, there'd be no risk, and no reward.

With pathfinder, you actually have to think.

EDIT: and wow, that turned into a big 4th edition rant. I never did like 4th edition.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 05:57:46 PM by BobChuck »

kenada

  • Critical part of Operation Impending Doom IV
  • Grand Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1594
  • Karma: -1
    • View Profile
    • http://kenada.polyatomic.org/
Re: Pathfinder
« Reply #76 on: January 25, 2010, 06:04:42 PM »
I was thinking more of the fluff, flavor, and non-combat stuff that 4e mostly got rid of.

yeah. With 4th ed, there's no point in thinking about your character class or choice, because they are all basically identical.
I’m not sure I agree with this. A shaman plays quite a bit differently than a warlord. However, I do think the focus of the core books was excessively narrow compared to base-3.5e or Pathfinder, and I think their reasoning— ‘wanting to do it (those classes/feats) right’ — seems more like ‘wanting to sell you more *books’.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 06:17:35 PM by kenada »

BobChuck

  • Guest
Re: Pathfinder
« Reply #77 on: January 25, 2010, 06:12:37 PM »
Oh, definately. But I've already complained about those things more than enough in several other older threads, so I left those points out.

kenada

  • Critical part of Operation Impending Doom IV
  • Grand Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1594
  • Karma: -1
    • View Profile
    • http://kenada.polyatomic.org/
Re: Pathfinder
« Reply #78 on: January 25, 2010, 06:20:48 PM »
I never really appreciated those difference until I started reading through the Pathfinder RPG: Core Rulebook. I’m on the spells chapter now, and reading through 140 pages of spells is going to be a slog.

Let’s set a tenative date of 2/12 for the first game. That will give me enough time to properly read everything (including the bestiary and module) along with enough time to pick up the last few people we need.

BobChuck

  • Guest
Re: Pathfinder
« Reply #79 on: January 26, 2010, 10:03:50 AM »
err. really?

I asked around, and found one interested person: my brother. He would very much like to play.

He has a very busy week Monday through Thursday, but has Friday off. He currently spends all day Friday playing L5R - by that I mean, he starts at 9am and ends at 8pm. He's willing to call it early on every second Friday and show up.

His game for this Friday is canceled, so he and I were both really looking forward to gaming.

I explained the stat generation system to him. It took a few repetitions, but he caught on, and he likes it. I believe the conversation went something like this:
me: "okay, first level. Stat generation is rolled in order."
him: "groan."
me: "you roll 2d4+6 six times."
him: "...what? that would mean the max is only 14?"
me: "yes, and min is 8. It's 15 point buy."
him: "wait, 15 points on top of what you rolled?"
me: "no, it's 15 point buy, using what you rolled as a base. What you roll needs to be between 0 and 10 inclusive."
him: "oh. OH! so like you use what you rolled as a base, and buy up to 15 points! neat."
me: "yeah, it took several iterations to get right. The method is sufficiently random, while still being balenced."
him: "it's fair and allows for some customization."

Also, he had a few questions.
He wanted to know if the beta-test classes from the Advanced Player's Guide were available (I said probably not, as they still need some balance work and you've got a lot to read already).
He also wanted to know if any non-standard races were available (I told him that you do have the bestiary). He specifically asked about the Aasimar and Tiefling as examples. I told him that I did not know, that it might be okay depending on the character concept. He did say that he thought things like Orc and Goblin would not be okay (he is fond of the oddball races).
He would like to play a Bard. I pointed out that he will be rolling his stats when he gets there, and won't know his scores until then. He said that he can always buy up Charisma, and that everyone likes having bards around.

So yeah. We will likely have a Bard. knowing him, I would be surprised if it wasn't a Gnome. It all depends on what he rolls, of course, but it's hard to come up with a really bad roll for a Bard.

By the way, his "play style" is very different from mine. I am, as you may have noticed, rather mechanics-oriented, and I have some difficultly role-playing. He is very much into role-playing and creating... shall we say, "unique" characters. He knows the rules almost as well as I do, but we approach the game differently.

kenada

  • Critical part of Operation Impending Doom IV
  • Grand Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1594
  • Karma: -1
    • View Profile
    • http://kenada.polyatomic.org/
Re: Pathfinder
« Reply #80 on: January 26, 2010, 10:40:11 AM »
err. really?
To be honest, I wasn't expecting to get another player this quickly. :) If TeH Badger is available, I'd be willing to run this Friday. 2/12 was assuming that we'd be stuck at 2.5 players. I'll call Trever to make sure he'll come.

Teh Badger, would this Friday work for you?

Quote
I asked around, and found one interested person: my brother. He would very much like to play.
Awesome.

Quote
He has a very busy week Monday through Thursday, but has Friday off. He currently spends all day Friday playing L5R - by that I mean, he starts at 9am and ends at 8pm. He's willing to call it early on every second Friday and show up.

His game for this Friday is canceled, so he and I were both really looking forward to gaming.
Consider the first game tentatively moved back to 1/29.

Quote
Also, he had a few questions.
He wanted to know if the beta-test classes from the Advanced Player's Guide were available (I said probably not, as they still need some balance work and you've got a lot to read already).
That's pretty much the reason why they aren't allowed. I still have a lot of reading to do, and I tend not to allow beta material into my game.

Quote
He also wanted to know if any non-standard races were available (I told him that you do have the bestiary). He specifically asked about the Aasimar and Tiefling as examples. I told him that I did not know, that it might be okay depending on the character concept. He did say that he thought things like Orc and Goblin would not be okay (he is fond of the oddball races).
Tieflings would be fine. This AP has a ton of stuff on making Tiefling characters that may be interesting for your brother. Does Pathfinder have ECLs, or do Tieflings and the like advance more like they do in 4e?

Quote
He would like to play a Bard. I pointed out that he will be rolling his stats when he gets there, and won't know his scores until then. He said that he can always buy up Charisma, and that everyone likes having bards around.
Provided he doesn't get totally hosed by the character creation process, this ought to be possible. I'm thinking of changing it to rolling two arrays and taking your preference. (Basically what you did with the wizard and druid.)

Quote
By the way, his "play style" is very different from mine. I am, as you may have noticed, rather mechanics-oriented, and I have some difficultly role-playing. He is very much into role-playing and creating... shall we say, "unique" characters. He knows the rules almost as well as I do, but we approach the game differently.
Hoo-ray! I'm not great at role playing, but a game dominated by Gamists makes me a sad DM since I tend to be more of a Simulationist.

Edit: I talked to Trever. He believes he will be available, but he needs to confirm with the family.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 10:49:05 AM by kenada »

BobChuck

  • Guest
Re: Pathfinder
« Reply #81 on: January 26, 2010, 10:51:43 AM »
He has a very busy week Monday through Thursday, but has Friday off. He currently spends all day Friday playing L5R - by that I mean, he starts at 9am and ends at 8pm. He's willing to call it early on every second Friday and show up.

His game for this Friday is canceled, so he and I were both really looking forward to gaming.
Consider the first game tentatively moved back to 1/29.
woot.

Quote
Quote
He also wanted to know if any non-standard races were available (I told him that you do have the bestiary). He specifically asked about the Aasimar and Tiefling as examples. I told him that I did not know, that it might be okay depending on the character concept. He did say that he thought things like Orc and Goblin would not be okay (he is fond of the oddball races).
Tieflings would be fine. This AP has a ton of stuff on making Tiefling characters that may be interesting for your brother. Does Pathfinder have ECLs, or do Tieflings and the like advance more like they do in 4e?

yes, pathfinder has level adjustments. or ECL. or whatever you want to call it. It's complicated.

First, seeing as how they powered up the core races a little, most of the "+1" races are down to having no adjustment - the hobgoblin, aasimar, and tiefling are all effectively "normal" power level races.

Since you ask, the way "Monsters as PCs" currently works is surprisingly straightforward, though by no means simple. Take your monster (Ogre). Look at the monster's CR (3). That is the monster's starting "character level". You can move around Skill points and Feats, and you get starting PC wealth for a character of your "level". Everything else, most notable Ability Scores, remain fixed. In other words, you do NOT get the monsters scores as adjustments to your rolls or point buy, you just get the monsters scores period, with no modification.
After that, you advance normally through your class levels. Eventually, the DM can let you start "dropping" your initial monster level, if it starts being too much of a penalty (so an Ogre barbarian will always be at a +3 CR, but the Ogre cleric will eventually drop down to +2 or +1).
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 10:54:40 AM by BobChuck »

kenada

  • Critical part of Operation Impending Doom IV
  • Grand Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1594
  • Karma: -1
    • View Profile
    • http://kenada.polyatomic.org/
Re: Pathfinder
« Reply #82 on: January 26, 2010, 11:10:04 AM »
First, seeing as how they powered up the core races a little, most of the "+1" races are down to having no adjustment - the hobgoblin, aasimar, and tiefling are all effectively "normal" power level races.
That’s good. I’m inclined to limit races to non-adjusted races just to keep everyone on the same level.

Quote
Since you ask, the way "Monsters as PCs" currently works is surprisingly straightforward, though by no means simple. Take your monster (Ogre). Look at the monster's CR (3). That is the monster's starting "character level". You can move around Skill points and Feats, and you get starting PC wealth for a character of your "level". Everything else, most notable Ability Scores, remain fixed. In other words, you do NOT get the monsters scores as adjustments to your rolls or point buy, you just get the monsters scores period, with no modification.

After that, you advance normally through your class levels. Eventually, the DM can let you start "dropping" your initial monster level, if it starts being too much of a penalty (so an Ogre barbarian will always be at a +3 CR, but the Ogre cleric will eventually drop down to +2 or +1).
I won’t be allowing monsterous PCs. I still have bad memories of Savage Species.

BobChuck

  • Guest
Re: Pathfinder
« Reply #83 on: January 26, 2010, 05:14:04 PM »
Like I said, he likes the more oddball PC races, like gnome and orc and mite.

kenada

  • Critical part of Operation Impending Doom IV
  • Grand Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1594
  • Karma: -1
    • View Profile
    • http://kenada.polyatomic.org/
Re: Pathfinder
« Reply #84 on: January 27, 2010, 03:06:27 AM »

kenada

  • Critical part of Operation Impending Doom IV
  • Grand Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1594
  • Karma: -1
    • View Profile
    • http://kenada.polyatomic.org/
Re: Pathfinder
« Reply #85 on: January 28, 2010, 11:18:43 AM »
*bump*
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 11:56:56 AM by kenada »

Teh Bagder

  • Knight
  • *
  • Posts: 85
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Pathfinder
« Reply #86 on: January 28, 2010, 12:07:50 PM »
We just had a change of staffing at work, and it's thrown some spanners into the mix for the next few weeks. This means I'm working extra on Fri and Sat. We've also just been hit hard with pre-midterm week exam madness, with us having record numbers taking tests (up to double expected) and we're under the gun. I can't make it for the next couple of weeks because of this.

I know this throws a spanner in the works. Still interested, just stuff hitting the fan right now.

kenada

  • Critical part of Operation Impending Doom IV
  • Grand Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1594
  • Karma: -1
    • View Profile
    • http://kenada.polyatomic.org/
Re: Pathfinder
« Reply #87 on: January 28, 2010, 01:40:39 PM »
Sounds good. I expect us to spend most of the time this week working on characters and fleshing out the party since I’m not going to be completely ready this week. The next session will be on 2/12.

kenada

  • Critical part of Operation Impending Doom IV
  • Grand Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1594
  • Karma: -1
    • View Profile
    • http://kenada.polyatomic.org/
Re: Pathfinder
« Reply #88 on: January 28, 2010, 08:41:09 PM »
First, seeing as how they powered up the core races a little, most of the "+1" races are down to having no adjustment - the hobgoblin, aasimar, and tiefling are all effectively "normal" power level races.
That’s good. I’m inclined to limit races to non-adjusted races just to keep everyone on the same level.
To follow up on this, I think I’ll be limiting the races to core + tieflings since there is a sizable tiefling population in Westcrown (even though they are widely hated). I still have some reading to do before I decide whether and what to incorporate the “Playing Tieflings” sidebar.

kenada

  • Critical part of Operation Impending Doom IV
  • Grand Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1594
  • Karma: -1
    • View Profile
    • http://kenada.polyatomic.org/
Re: Pathfinder
« Reply #89 on: January 28, 2010, 11:05:13 PM »
Wow, Pathfinder has a flat XP award system like 4e rather than the insane table where you cross references monster CR with party ACL.

And I still have a metric fuck-ton of material to read. I’m getting close to having read most of the relevant stuff from the module, but I still have a ton of stuff to read in the Core Rulebook. I’m not sure how ready I’m going to be tomorrow, but we’re definitely going to make characters (well, you guys will anyway).