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Poll

Are you interested in playing through an adventure path?

Yes
3 (75%)
No
0 (0%)
Maybe
0 (0%)
I don’t care
1 (25%)

Total Members Voted: 4

Voting closed: August 31, 2009, 11:41:27 PM

Author Topic: A New Adventure Beckons‽  (Read 2399 times)

kenada

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A New Adventure Beckons‽
« on: August 24, 2009, 11:09:01 PM »
My current game is at a point where I could wrap it up, and it’s something I’ve been considering. I’ve mentioned off and on all summer doing something different in the fall, so this possibility shouldn’t be too surprising. The fact is that I’m pretty much running in to DM’s block at this point, and I don’t want to just drag things on out of some obligation to keep running the game through the paragon and epic tiers.

Now, I know that some people would like to see what the game would play like at the higher tiers. I apologize if switching (again) proves disappointing. However, given the way I can see things going, I can all but guarantee that it would play like heroic tier except with higher level monsters. I don’t think that would be a good thing.

This brings me to my current question: would you be interested in playing through an adventure path? I suppose one could call an adventure path a campaign and leave it at that, but it lays out the adventure progression from levels 1 through 30. The NPCs are unlikely to all be dicks, and there would be some sort of semi-coherent plot.

To be honest, I don’t really have the time or motivation to do the planning necessary to make a decent campaign (or for a lot of things, really :(). I guess the reason why I’m putting up the poll is that I’ve never actually played in a campaign that heavily drew from pre-written material, so it’s a bit of a weird concept to me.

Measure Zero

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Re: A New Adventure Beckons‽
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2009, 12:25:30 PM »
I was hoping to develop the characters of Gabriel and/or Janina a little bit more, but I'm always ready to try new things.  What is an adventure path and what system is it supposed to work with?

kenada

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Re: A New Adventure Beckons‽
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2009, 07:18:49 PM »
I was hoping to develop the characters of Gabriel and/or Janina a little bit more, but I'm always ready to try new things.
The problem I have is that where I was thinking the campaign would go turns out to be very lame (as it basically has entails your chasing after Lady Moonfire for the next 20 levels).

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What is an adventure path and what system is it supposed to work with?
Think of an adventure path as a pre-fab campaign containing enough adventures to take a party from levels 1 to 30, which is released in installments via Dungeon magazine D&D Insider, obviously making it a D&D thing. :) I don’t have a lot of objections to 4e as a system at this point, and switching systems too frequently tends to result in players being reluctant to buy supporting materials.

I’ve read some reviews of the one I have in mind, Scales of War, and the consensus seems to be that it is much better written than the individual modules that WotC has released so far, and my light reading of the first one and one of the later ones seems to bear this out.


I should mention that I’m thinking of a couple of changes to how I run things. The first is to revert my houserule. The adventure path presumably was written with the RaW in mind and hopefully won’t have problems with pacing. I’m willing to reconsider if this turns out to be a problem. To be honest, it’s not been a big one after we got away from the dungeon crawls of Scepter Tower of Spellguard. Scales of War appears to be more concerned with moving the story forward than the stand alone modules that I’ve played in have been.

I’m also considering providing for additional characters via the companion rules in the Dungeon Master’s Guide 2. Not everyone enjoys playing multiple characters (or does it well), and I think this contributed to some of the mounting frustration last week. One thing I do like about it is that it (for the most part) keeps magic items as something special for the players rather than requiring the party to grease the fifth wheel to keep him effective in combat. The released date for DMG2 9/15, which would be after our first session, but I don’t anticipate this being a big problem.

Measure Zero

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Re: A New Adventure Beckons‽
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2009, 08:49:36 PM »
I think that the frustration was mostly due to the difficulty level of the encounters.  I shouldn't have included the extra monster in the forest fight.  The kobold lair and dragon battles were about right, though (one was avoidable, and different strategies would have made the other more controllable).  I designed John specifically to be the simplest to use defender possible that would still be effective.  I'm not sure that an NPC-type would prove to be any easier to use.  If you still think that he's a problem, I can take him out.  Based on what I saw, I think you guys can probably deal with enemies pulling one of you out and beating him up.

Measure Zero

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Re: A New Adventure Beckons‽
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2009, 08:55:25 PM »
Not everyone enjoys playing multiple characters (or does it well), and I think this contributed to some of the mounting frustration last week. One thing I do like about it is that it (for the most part) keeps magic items as something special for the players rather than requiring the party to grease the fifth wheel to keep him effective in combat.
By the way, this sort of rave review for my campaign makes me feel like you don't want me to DM.  Given the apparent lack of interest (Trevor gave me the same response), maybe I should just call it quits before anyone gets too invested in it.

kenada

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Re: A New Adventure Beckons‽
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2009, 09:06:14 PM »
I think that the frustration was mostly due to the difficulty level of the encounters.  I shouldn't have included the extra monster in the forest fight.  The kobold lair and dragon battles were about right, though (one was avoidable, and different strategies would have made the other more controllable).
From this side of the table, it appeared that people were getting impatient that the guy unfamiliar with fighter mechanics was taking so long to take his turn. I imagine it was a combination of that, its getting late, and the last fight being particularly nasty.

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I designed John specifically to be the simplest to use defender possible that would still be effective.
I’m mostly concerned with people feeling that someone “has” to roll up an second character to fill composition gaps in this game. To be honest, I’m hoping that the party naturally fills all of the roles and don’t need another character to fill that gap. Please note that this wasn’t intended to be a commentary on how your game is organized. :)

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I'm not sure that an NPC-type would prove to be any easier to use.  If you still think that he's a problem, I can take him out.  Based on what I saw, I think you guys can probably deal with enemies pulling one of you out and beating him up.
I would expect it to require less bookkeeping.

kenada

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Re: A New Adventure Beckons‽
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2009, 10:22:37 PM »
I’ve talked to Thomas and Trever, and they both seemed receptive to the change. We’ll wrap up this Saturday (with totally epic awesome action) and do character creation on 9/12, when Josh is back in town. Schedule-wise, I would like to run on a fixed schedule of certain Saturdays rather than just sort two weeks from the last session. I’m hoping schedule stability will make it easier for everyone to know their availability and plan accordingly.

Character creation will be standard point buy with no alignment restrictions. The backgrounds in Dragon #366 will be available for use in addition to the ones in the Player’s Handbook 2, and I expect chosen backgrounds to be explained via your character history. At this point in time, I am choosing to exclude additional material from Dungeon and Dragon other than items that show up as part of the Scales of War adventure path.

I will be providing a D&D campaign file for the Character Builder to aid in creating a legal character.

Measure Zero

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Re: A New Adventure Beckons‽
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2009, 11:04:30 PM »
Is it okay if I play the striker this time?  I'd like to try out a some version of the sorcerer class.

kenada

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Re: A New Adventure Beckons‽
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2009, 08:15:55 AM »
That’s fine with me. Party comp is largely up to the party though I would like to see all of the roles covered, which I think the PHB2 helps encourage by having multiple choices for each role.


I was going to update my original post, but since someone has responded, I’ll add it here. The only alignment restriction is the standard 4e one: no evil alignments.

Atreys

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Re: A New Adventure Beckons‽
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2009, 09:06:57 AM »
I'm down; it'd be nice to have the materials necessary on hand to get to the next tiers.

I'm going to try playing a bastard.  Those aren't inherently evil, are they?

kenada

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Re: A New Adventure Beckons‽
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2009, 09:21:11 AM »
I'm going to try playing a bastard.  Those aren't inherently evil, are they?
No, they come in all shades. Unaligned is probably the easiest way to play it, but even Lawful Good ones are possible.

Edit: My only concern is party cohesion, which is why evil characters are off the table. While I dislike the vagueness of Unaligned in 4e, I think that this can be mitigated somewhat by defining the character's personality ahead of time (and how you intend to play it). I think I'm going to request that people use the format Mike used in his current game, which includes a bit about the character's personality in addition to his background and description.

Edit 2: What I'm saying is that I don't want Unaligned to be a cover for playing an Evil character without adopting that alignment.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 09:50:37 AM by kenada »

Measure Zero

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Re: A New Adventure Beckons‽
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2009, 12:02:49 PM »
Wow, I really wish the rules for dagger implements weren't so ambiguously worded.  These following issues all apply to sorcerers, and most apply to bards as well:

- When you take dagger expertise, etc. it doesn't seem to say that you need to use the dagger as a weapon for the bonus to apply, only that you need to attack with it.  Is casting a spell through a dagger considered attacking with it?  If I plan to use my dagger as a melee/ranged weapon, do I need two sets of feats for it?

- Same issue with magic items like the frost dagger, and it's even more ambiguous here.  Does using a flaming dagger make my acid orb into a fire-acid orb?

- Same issue with rogue sneak attack.  I channel my spell through my dagger, so I am making an attack with my dagger, so technically I should be able to use sneak attack with this attack.  This goes for rogues who multiclass as sorcerers as well as sorcerers who multiclass rogue.  I guess it's potentially an issue for half-elves, especially if they use that feat that gives them an extra at-will.  A half-elf rogue that can sneak attack with fire spray all the time would be pretty funny.

- Same issue with daggermaster paragon path.  Does this path make dagger-channeled spells crit on 18-20?

- Same issues as above when the sorcerer uses the dagger to make melee spell attacks via a certain feat.

- Another issue with that feat: when a spell that counts as a ranged basic attack is channeled into a melee attack, is it considered a melee basic attack, a ranged basic attack, or neither?  Does this change when you look at opportunity attacks?  What about those bracers of mighty striking-type items?


Note that allowing all of these things to work dagger implements wouldn't overpower sorcerers.  They already do less damage than rogues and rangers in exchange for having a better selection of area-affecting encounter powers.  Their at-wills do a little bit better damage than a wizard's, with almost no control features added in.  In most battles, we've seen that half of our attacks end up being at-wills, so a little boost wouldn't hurt all that much.

The only one that I really question is the magic item one.  It potentially gives the sorcerer a great deal of power when facing monsters with vulnerabilities or resistances that the sorcerer has prepared for (or has element-specific feats or racial abilities for).  For example, if a sorcerer somehow got a dagger that changed powers into radiant powers, I think it might horn in a little too much on the invoker's territory.  But then again, I do like the idea of a bard's stinging insult literally chilling his enemy to the bone.

I would like to have most of these approved for the campaign, because the character concept I want to go with is something along the lines of the 3.5 arcane trickster gish.

- A side issue on implements: if you use a two-handed weapon as an implement but never as a weapon, do you need to hold it in two hands to do so?  Can you off-hand a staff implement and then not be allowed to use it as a quarterstaff without clearing your other hand?

kenada

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Re: A New Adventure Beckons‽
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2009, 01:10:54 PM »
When you take dagger expertise, etc. it doesn't seem to say that you need to use the dagger as a weapon for the bonus to apply, only that you need to attack with it.  Is casting a spell through a dagger considered attacking with it?  If I plan to use my dagger as a melee/ranged weapon, do I need two sets of feats for it?
I assume no (to requiring two feats), but I need to do some reading on Implement Expertise.

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Same issue with magic items like the frost dagger, and it's even more ambiguous here.  Does using a flaming dagger make my acid orb into a fire-acid orb?
This was actually addressed in a FAQ and not as an errata that clarified the rules, which is disappointing. In this case, your spell would only gain the Fire keyword and fire damage when you cast the spell through the item's daily power by using it as a free action to add 1d6 fire damage.

Melee attacks might seem like a special case, but they aren't as far as I know. Spells cast through an item don't use that item's physical damage dice, so they do not gain the benefit of an item's at-will power that changes the damage type of its physical damage dice.

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Same issue with rogue sneak attack.  I channel my spell through my dagger, so I am making an attack with my dagger, so technically I should be able to use sneak attack with this attack.  This goes for rogues who multiclass as sorcerers as well as sorcerers who multiclass rogue.  I guess it's potentially an issue for half-elves, especially if they use that feat that gives them an extra at-will.  A half-elf rogue that can sneak attack with fire spray all the time would be pretty funny.
That seems fine with me. Rogues have always been able to multiclass as Rangers to gain extra dice once per combat, and Dragonborn Rogues could sneak attack with their breath weapons if they won initiative.

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Same issue with daggermaster paragon path.  Does this path make dagger-channeled spells crit on 18-20?
I'm inclinded to say no, but I need to read the paragon path to see specifically what it does. Attacks made with a weapon ≠ attacks channeled through a weapon as an implement.

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Same issues as above when the sorcerer uses the dagger to make melee spell attacks via a certain feat.
The answers are the same because it still doesn't use the weapon's damage dice. :)

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Another issue with that feat: when a spell that counts as a ranged basic attack is channeled into a melee attack, is it considered a melee basic attack, a ranged basic attack, or neither?
I need to reread the feat, but I believe it would be treated as a Melee Basic Attack.

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Does this change when you look at opportunity attacks?
Given that Opportunity Attacks must be Melee Basic Attacks, I would say that the above applies.

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What about those bracers of mighty striking-type items?
I assume that this is a bug in the Character Builder, and that you would need the melee version of those bracers or lose the bonus to damage. I need to read more on this as well.

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Note that allowing all of these things to work dagger implements wouldn't overpower sorcerers.  They already do less damage than rogues and rangers in exchange for having a better selection of area-affecting encounter powers.  Their at-wills do a little bit better damage than a wizard's, with almost no control features added in.  In most battles, we've seen that half of our attacks end up being at-wills, so a little boost wouldn't hurt all that much.
To be honest, I answered these questions before reading all of your post, but I think my responses are reasonable. :)

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A side issue on implements: if you use a two-handed weapon as an implement but never as a weapon, do you need to hold it in two hands to do so?  Can you off-hand a staff implement and then not be allowed to use it as a quarterstaff without clearing your other hand?
I assume so. Presuambly Weapon Properties apply only to attacking with a weapon and not to using it as an implement.

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Re: A New Adventure Beckons‽
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2009, 01:34:20 PM »
Assuming there's a 'reset' of sorts - new characters and so on and such - I might be interested in joining up.

So we'd be starting at level one, and climbing up the ladder?

Zero's playing a Striker, so that leaves Leader, Tank, and Controller, right?


kenada

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Re: A New Adventure Beckons‽
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2009, 01:42:10 PM »
Assuming there's a 'reset' of sorts - new characters and so on and such - I might be interested in joining up.
Huzzah!

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So we'd be starting at level one, and climbing up the ladder?
Yes. I'll have Thomas create a forum so I can post a welcome message with all the details though most of them are here in this thread. I'm on the fence at the moment about whether I want to allow daily power regeneration or not, and companions are out if we have a full group.

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Zero's playing a Striker, so that leaves Leader, Tank, and Controller, right?
As far as I know, yes. I suspect that Josh won't be a playing a Leader this time around, and I have no indication of what Trever or Thomas want to play.