The Quasi-perpetual Pathfinder Thread

[BobChuck]

hi trevor!

Sorry for taking the mage spot.

[BobChuck]

I've been thinking, and having multiple Arcane Spellcasters is fine.

I'm a Conjurer. My prohibited schools are Necromancy and Evocation. I am very much a battlefield control type character. Buffing allies, summoning, and preventing enemies from hurting the party.

My brother is (most likely) playing a Gnome Bard. He'll have some buff spells, some illusions, some enchantments, and of course lots and lots of charisma and social skills.

That leaves the whole "blowing crap up" slot rather empty. A sorcerer or Evoker could do well.

Also, a second wizard would let both of us double our spells known in our spellbooks. Just saying.

[kenada]

On character creation: most of my knowledge comes from two sources.
Treantmonk's Guides, which has through and high-quality breakdown of the Bard, Druid, Monk, Ranger, and Wizard, and what does and doesn't work for them so well.
DPR Olympics, which is basically a classic optimization thread. It has a lot of problems (which are "discussed" in typical forum fashion) and it by no means the complete, end-all-be-all answer, but it serves as a good starting point.

I want to emphasize that it is not the final answer to anything. For one thing, buff spells and items aren't allowed, which eliminates spellcasters entirely.

That strikes me as an unreasonable assumption given that the system is balanced around PCs having magic items.

For another thing, it assumes that the characters are able stand in place and full-round every time (including on the first/surprise round), which can be misleading.

This also strikes me as an unreasonable assumption. It’s like quoting one’s DPS on Patchwerk. It’s a nice theoretical maximum that has little bearing on real fights.

But for all its limitations, it's still very helpful.

I’ll have to take a look at them. I’ve found that people generally don’t like being ineffective in combat when someone else is doing awesome things.

[BobChuck]

by "buff spells or items" I meant "buff items". Like its not fair to use Greater Magic Oil, you have to actually buy the actual weapon.

Also, how'd you put this on the wrong thread?

[kenada]

Also, how'd you put this on the wrong thread?

I moved the discussion to this thread because it’s not really on topic for the Important Information thread.

[BobChuck]

aha

[Bishop]

hi trevor!

Sorry for taking the mage spot.

No worries, it was just the first thing that interested me while reading the core rules.
I'm now thinking rogue or fighter depending on the rolls.

Trev

[kenada]

Rob, are you aware of any discussions on how the balance in Pathfinder was not fixed? I know it’s been said that Pathfinder is still ‘broken’ outside of the 3–15/17 level range. Is it correct to assume that this is because people are too vulnerable to dying in one hit at low levels (due to their limited hit points)? I’ve been thinking of having everyone receive their con score + (average of HD rolled twice) instead of maximized HD + con modifier and had some concerns about the impact on resource usage.

For example, under the old system, a fighter with a Con score of 16 would receive 13 hit points at level 1. Under the new system, that same fighter would receive 16 + ^4 + 7∕₂ = 21 HP at level 1. A wizard with 11 Con would receive 6 HP under the old system and 11 + ^4 + 3∕₂ = 14 HP under the new system.

If I did this for PCs, I would also do it for monsters. If I did it for monsters, I would make the benefit of rolling two and taking the average a privilege of possessing PC class levels.

[kenada]

A reason why this method might not be desirable is that it makes Con damage and drains a bit more potent and potentially awkward because you have to account for receiving the full constitution score a bonus to hit points on the first hit die.

Let’s say that the fighter discussed in my previous example reaches level 10. Using the ‘old’ rules, he would have 87 HP while under the ‘new’ rules, he would have 95 HP.

While adventuring in a dungeon, his party encounters a bebilith. During the course of combat, he is bitten and fails his Fortitude saving throw every round against the rot effect, causing him to lose 10 points of constitution in total.

The fighter with the old-style HP would lose 50 HP due to the 10 points of constitution damage that he suffered. The fighter with the new-style HP would lose 55 HP because he loses 1 hit point for every HD beyond his first as well as 2 HP for his first HD.

[kenada]

I also have concerns that fractional CR monsters, such as kobolds, would end up with too much HP (e.g. an average kobold has 14 HP instead of 4).

[BobChuck]

Low level characters do tend to be a bit squishy, which is part of why the system doesn't work so good at level 1.

Yes, first level characters get more hp from having a larger hit die, still get max hit points AND favored class hp AND 3hp from toughness, but it's not quite enough - 3 monsters on the fighter + 1 crit = unconscious and dieing fighter.

the other part is spellcasters (all of them) run out of spells. They don't run out of "good" spells; they run out of spell period.

Yes, the "1d6+1/2 level for 3+ability per day" helps, in that it is slightly more effective than a crossbow bolt. But really, a caster-cleric shouldn't be forced to shooting his crossbow. Swinging his mace, yes, if bad guys close with him, but not the crossbow.

I don't think there's any way to really fix the problem without creating bigger ones down the line.

Actually, I think there is a solution, but the system doesn't really point it out. You have to take it easy. You have to make everything come in little bite-sized chunks.

Around level 5, you can start throwing big encounters that are CR = party level +2 or 3 and expect the party to make it. But do that to level ones, throw even a CR 2 fight at them (4 orcs), and its possible that someone will die; more importantly, even if no one does, the party will be out of resources and need to stop for the day.

Heck, even WoW has this issue - why is it necessary for mages to melee things until the mid-20s? WHY? Why doesn't nova+blink+blizzard work earlier? Why is the damage so horrible? Why do paladins have nothing but judgment and auto-attack for 20 levels? QQ

I think it all comes down to needing a learning curve. Level one characters are supposed to be basic and simple and rather vulnerable. That way, at level 5 when you can waste a whole room full of orcs without getting hurt, it actually means something.

[kenada]

the other part is spellcasters (all of them) run out of spells. They don't run out of "good" spells; they run out of spell period.

Yes, the "1d6+1/2 level for 3+ability per day" helps, in that it is slightly more effective than a crossbow bolt. But really, a caster-cleric shouldn't be forced to shooting his crossbow. Swinging his mace, yes, if bad guys close with him, but not the crossbow.

It appears that casters should be makings wands now that there is no XP cost to doing so, unless they actually like bonking monsters with a stick or shooting them with a crossbow.

Heck, even WoW has this issue - why is it necessary for mages to melee things until the mid-20s? WHY? Why doesn't nova+blink+blizzard work earlier? Why is the damage so horrible? Why do paladins have nothing but judgment and auto-attack for 20 levels? QQ

This is an artifact of classic. In classic, people had to stop to regen even in raids. Healers would rotate with each other so that they could get some regen time, and DPS casters would wand the boss. Blizzard moved away from this design in TBC and WLK, but they’ve only started to address the issue for leveling toons.

Edit: I think I’ll leave the HP rules as they are right now. It makes the system more complicated and could screw up balance later.

[kenada]

I don’t have any more tweaks planned, but I do intend to post when the game will be taking place. Unfortunately, the only Golarion calendar that I have is a few years out of date. I also plan on finishing off the bestiary and bonus bestiary this weekend. I’ve been kind of lazy for the last week or so about prep because I spent a month straight on the other stuff. >.<

[BobChuck]

the other part is spellcasters (all of them) run out of spells. They don't run out of "good" spells; they run out of spell period.

Yes, the "1d6+1/2 level for 3+ability per day" helps, in that it is slightly more effective than a crossbow bolt. But really, a caster-cleric shouldn't be forced to shooting his crossbow. Swinging his mace, yes, if bad guys close with him, but not the crossbow.

It appears that casters should be makings wands now that there is no XP cost to doing so, unless they actually like bonking monsters with a stick or shooting them with a crossbow.

Creaft Wand. Note the 5th level caster requirement. Also, a fully charged wand of 1st level spells with a caster level of 1 costs 750 gold, which is out reach until 3rd or 4th level, at which point the problem goes away anyway.

Wands are great for stuff that gets cast a lot and lasts a long time, like Mage Armor or Cure Light Wounds, but they are terrible for use in actual combat - that's what Staves are for; they use your caster level and can be recharged.

[kenada]

Rob, I’m building a supplemental sheet of tables to go along with the DM screen from Paizo. Do you have any recommendations? Right now, I know I want the AoO table, the weather table, the item breakage priority table, and what skills identify which kinds of monsters.

I also plan on posting my thoughts on alignments. It’s not a rule change so much as how I treat them, philosophically. I think alignments are pretty poorly treated in the core rulebooks.