Why The Swordsage is Not Overpowered

[Eldmor]

This discussion arose during the last session due to Iawa(sp?) being able to Death Mark something while invisible and deal 2d6+6d6+6 and 6d6 spread damage per encounter in one blow. Here are some reasons why this is completely within class balance.

#1 Armor Class
For any Strike manuever to work, it has to hit the target. AC is the easiest statistic besides skill bonus to increase magically at (1000x)^2gp where x is the amount of the armor bonus. Add in that Swordsage has a medium Base Attack Bonus (ala Cleric or Rogue) and you'll see why it's the "skirmisher" of the Tome of Battle classes.

#2 Recovery of Maneuvers
Swordsage has the worst recovery mechanic, only being able to recover one manuever for a full-round action in combat. Swordsage also has the least number of maneuvers readied at any time, but instead have a high amount of maneuvers known.

#3 Combat Resilience
Swordsage also has lowest hit die of any Tomb of Battle class, they're only saving grace is having a Monk Armor Class. (10+Armor+Dex+Wis+Misc) This again enforces their role as "skirmisher".

#4 "They Deal More Damage Than Wizards"
Wizards were never meant to deal damage. (Sans Evokers, which suck at resource management.) They control the battlefield so that their allies can come in with advantages and their foes with disadvantages. Fireball was called in as the "Arcane Death Mark". Let's take a look at the two.

Fireball
Evocation [Fire]
Sor/Wiz 3; requires V,S,M
Cast Time: Standard action
Range: Long (400+40'/Lv)
Area: 20'-radius spread
Saving Throw: Reflex (Half)
Effect: 1d6/Lv (max 10d6) fire damage in the area.

Death Mark
Desert Wind (Strike) [Fire]
Swordsage 3
Initiation Time: Stanard action
Range: Melee
Area: Double area of target's square
Saving Throw: Reflex (Half)
Effect: 6d6 fire damage to enemy and all within the area, with the exception of you. Supernatural effect.

Advantages for Fireball: Range (600' at the least), lack of attack roll, higher damage cap, metamagic able.
Advantages for Death Mark: Higher initial damage, can't blow yourself up.
Disadvantages for Both: Anti-magic aura kills it, fire resistance/immunity kills it.

FYI Death Mark + Emerald Razor does not work since both are Strikes and they cannot be overlapped except when indicated as a class ability. Cloak of Deception does work however, since it is a Boost.

[Measure Zero]

This discussion arose during the last session due to Iawa(sp?) being able to Death Mark something while invisible and deal 2d6+6d6+6 and 6d6 spread damage per encounter in one blow. Here are some reasons why this is completely within class balance.

#1 Armor Class
For any Strike manuever to work, it has to hit the target. AC is the easiest statistic besides skill bonus to increase magically at (1000x)^2gp where x is the amount of the armor bonus. Add in that Swordsage has a medium Base Attack Bonus (ala Cleric or Rogue) and you'll see why it's the "skirmisher" of the Tome of Battle classes.

That formula is either incorrect, or AC is expensive indeed.  In order to stop the swordsage from casting spells while slashing things, you also stop the rogue, the monk, the bard, etc.

#2 Recovery of Maneuvers
Swordsage has the worst recovery mechanic, only being able to recover one manuever for a full-round action in combat. Swordsage also has the least number of maneuvers readied at any time, but instead have a high amount of maneuvers known.

That's awesome that you can run and hide and subsequently recharge your fireball

#3 Combat Resilience
Swordsage also has lowest hit die of any Tomb of Battle class, they're only saving grace is having a Monk Armor Class. (10+Armor+Dex+Wis+Misc) This again enforces their role as "skirmisher".

Mage damage + Monk AC?  Whoa.

#4 "They Deal More Damage Than Wizards"
Wizards were never meant to deal damage. (Sans Evokers, which suck at resource management.) They control the battlefield so that their allies can come in with advantages and their foes with disadvantages. Fireball was called in as the "Arcane Death Mark". Let's take a look at the two.

Fireball
Evocation [Fire]
Sor/Wiz 3; requires V,S,M
Cast Time: Standard action
Range: Long (400+40'/Lv)
Area: 20'-radius spread
Saving Throw: Reflex (Half)
Effect: 1d6/Lv (max 10d6) fire damage in the area.

Death Mark
Desert Wind (Strike) [Fire]
Swordsage 3
Initiation Time: Stanard action
Range: Melee
Area: Double area of target's square
Saving Throw: Reflex (Half)
Effect: 6d6 fire damage to enemy and all within the area, with the exception of you. Supernatural effect.

Advantages for Fireball: Range (600' at the least), lack of attack roll, higher damage cap, metamagic able.
Advantages for Death Mark: Higher initial damage, can't blow yourself up.
Disadvantages for Both: Anti-magic aura kills it, fire resistance/immunity kills it.

FYI Death Mark + Emerald Razor does not work since both are Strikes and they cannot be overlapped except when indicated as a class ability. Cloak of Deception does work however, since it is a Boost.

You are right!  Mages should be able to cast multiple spells at once!

[Eldmor]

That formula is either incorrect, or AC is expensive indeed.  In order to stop the swordsage from casting spells while slashing things, you also stop the rogue, the monk, the bard, etc.

Rogue, bard, and especially monk are considered "low tier" classes, so that doesn't bother me. As a comparison to the AC formula; I present the Weapon Bonus formula. [Also; the formula I posted was wrong. It's (x^2)*1000gp. Really should check more than the +1 in a formula.] (x^2)*2000gold. You can gain armor at twice the rate of people being able to hit you and being a medium BAB class makes it hurt even more.

That's awesome that you can run and hide and subsequently recharge your fireball.

Rope Trick. Run away and recharge ALL of your spells and come back when you feel it's safe.

Mage damage + Monk AC?  Whoa.

Monk AC isn't as it is cracked up to be. Raising attribute scores is much more expensive then raising AC.

You are right!  Mages should be able to cast multiple spells at once!

Quicken Spell? Twin Spell? Split Ray? Familiar? Delay Spell? Repeat Spell? That's just off the top of my head. Also, Boosts are normally one-round self-buffs while spells normally buff one person for minutes or hours per level or a group for rounds or minutes per level.

[Thomas Kerwin]

That's awesome that you can run and hide and subsequently recharge your fireball.

Rope Trick. Run away and recharge ALL of your spells and come back when you feel it's safe.

I promised myself I would stay out of this, but this argument is ridiculous.  Wouldn't a wizard have to be go to sleep for 8 hours to regain her spells?  Any wizard would take a feat to regain a spell level with a full round action.

[Eldmor]

If Rope Trick is cast by someone with at least a caster level of 8, they get 8 hours of solitude. Never mind the fact you can extend it.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropeTrick.htm
What I'm also trying to get across is that Maneuvers are nowhere near as powerful as equivalent level spells.

[kenada]

Well, there is a certain utility to being able to recharge one's big attack without having to abandon the party/encounter.

[Eldmor]

It also prevents the dreaded Spellcaster Narcolepsy.

"Oh crap I'm out of spells. Time to set up camp."
"It's 14 bells!"
"I had to use a little bit more than usual."
"You set ablaze to all the 'suspicious shrubbery' along the road."
"It attacked me first, I swear."

[bossadelic]

people have itchy nerfing fingers

if someone wants to bring up overpowered classes and then compare it to a wizard, then they make themselves look like a complete moron. wizards are THE overpowered class in d&d, hands down. its a matter of understanding and utilizing the mechanics of a class. sure, a swordsage can have a high wisdom and high dex and have some pretty sweet AC, and then use an invis. buff with a certain stance and use death mark and do some gnarly things. but a wizard also has access to stuff like mage armor or shield or stoneskin or displacement at low levels plus the fact that they arent in melee, adding in metamagic and getting virtually everything as a touch attack or radius burst requiring no roll, being able to enchant or create illusions, pull items out of thin air, etc etc. people are just mad that melee is starting to creep up on magic users for being able to find fun combinations that are effective.

in other words, shut the fuck up. melee classes are almost always boring. thats why you see so many variants on the theme like a marshal or monk or the sudden strike/sneak attack abilities etc etc etc. when was the last time there was an interesting straight fighter? by the way a 10th level fireball is 10d6 with a range of 800 ft requiring no attack roll. you could also empower it to be 10d6 + 50%. a 10th level death mark is still weapon damage+6d6 requiring an attack roll at melee range with 5 foot spread or 10 foot spread for large vs. a 20 foot spread.

[Eldmor]

people are just mad that melee is starting to creep up on magic users for being able to find fun combinations that are effective.

Quoted.
For.
Truth.

[Thomas Kerwin]

in other words, shut the fuck up.

Who are you talking to?

[Eldmor]

in other words, shut the fuck up.

Who are you talking to?

I think it might be you old fogies with your AD&D canes. 

[Thomas Kerwin]

I think being able to recharge special abilities more often is a good thing, having to worry about when the party is out of spells is pretty lame.  The swordsage abilities are extremely powerful in the middle class levels, but I would agree that wizards are still the most powerful at the high end.

[Thomas Kerwin]

in other words, shut the fuck up.

Who are you talking to?

I think it might be you old fogies with your AD&D canes. 

You mean 2nd Edition?  3rd is much less ridiculous.  But that's beside the point, try to be polite.

[Eldmor]

I think being able to recharge special abilities more often is a good thing, having to worry about when the party is out of spells is pretty lame.  The swordsage abilities are extremely powerful in the middle class levels, but I would agree that wizards are still the most powerful at the high end.

Every spell level of Wizard has a save or suck/lose/die spell.
Lv1- Color Spray
Lv2- Glitterdust
Lv3- Hold Person
Lv4- Black Tentacles [Start midrange.]
Lv5- Feeblemind (combine with Touch of Idiocy for 2-shot kill)
Lv6- Flesh to Stone [End midrange.]
Lv7- Finger of Death
Lv8- Irresistible Dance
Lv9- Wail of the Banshee

Nope, Wizard still wins.

[Measure Zero]

I never claimed that the class was overpowered, but the lack of civility of its defender has convinced me that I don't like it.  Here's why: I don't like the charm combo spam of Exalted combat, and it seems like BoNS system is tilted far in that direction.  One guy activates half of his powers in a way that trumps whatever else is going on, and either he wins the fight or he sucks for the rest of the encounter.  I don't like it when mages or clerics do this sort of thing either, and as a result I avoid playing them this way.