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Author Topic: D&D 4e  (Read 11502 times)

kenada

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D&D 4e
« on: February 19, 2008, 06:53:51 PM »
In case some people prefer not to inflict the abject stupidity of Slashdot (comments mostly) on themselves, the D&D 4e designers finally ‘replied’ to the /. interview questions.

The D&D Designers Answer Your Questions

Eldmor

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Re: D&D 4e
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2008, 07:28:14 PM »
For anyone that's been caring to keep up on 4e news, which I think is only me, all of this is old news.
Fourth Edition will be awesome and own face. And I say this with well over $300 in 3.5 material in my possession.

kenada

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Re: D&D 4e
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2008, 07:53:36 PM »
Do you know how accurate the list here is? I do wish I knew what they meant by "aggro will be core" because that is the biggest turn off right there.

Eldmor

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Re: D&D 4e
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2008, 08:30:37 PM »
"Agro will be core" meaning stuff from the Knight base class and melee battlefield control, which is sorely needed. The Knight has a class feature called Challenges where they somehow control the battle so that they are the focus of attention. All of them are Will save to resist. Melee battlefield control would be setting yourself against a charge, making AoOs with side-effects, and other such things. Anything that makes non-magic melee combat more useful is always appreciated.
More importantly, all of these are 3.5e. It will simply make for a more fun game so that it's mechanically supported why enemies would want to attack certain characters at a glance instead of "he's wearing robes, so he must pewpewmissles!". There's no numbers below the surface, as far as I know.
I would like to make this an opportune time to plug OctopusInc, who is prescreened for 4e.

kenada

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Re: D&D 4e
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2008, 09:22:38 PM »
"Agro will be core" meaning stuff from the Knight base class and melee battlefield control, which is sorely needed. The Knight has a class feature called Challenges where they somehow control the battle so that they are the focus of attention. All of them are Will save to resist.
Am I off-base in interpreting this as "must make a Will save to change targets"?

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Melee battlefield control would be setting yourself against a charge, making AoOs with side-effects, and other such things. Anything that makes non-magic melee combat more useful is always appreciated.
You can already set yourself against a charge (in 3e even). Am I missing something? Is melee combat (in 3.5e) really that useless?

More importantly, all of these are 3.5e. It will simply make for a more fun game so that it's mechanically supported why enemies would want to attack certain characters at a glance instead of "he's wearing robes, so he must pewpewmissles!".
It makes more tactical sense to kill the apparent magic user than it does to beat on the heavily armored guy while everyone else kills you because the armored guy used some sort of magical ability to make you attack him. Unless the monster is of low intelligence, then it'll probably attack nearest thing.

As far as I'm concerned, whom the monster attacks should not be determined by mechanics. Aggro is a kludge in MMORPGs because terrain and positioning (by blocking movement) are typically not a factor in combat. In D&D, you should be using the terrain and formations to control the flow of battle, not artificial bullshit like aggro.

Edit: Found the Knight class

This is what I am talking about:
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Test of Mettle (Ex): Starting at 4th level, you can shout a challenge to all enemies, calling out for the mightiest among them to face you in combat. Any target of this ability must have a language of some sort and an Intelligence score of 5 or higher. Creatures that do not meet these requirements are immune to the test of mettle. You must have line of sight and line of effect to the targets of this ability.

As a swift action, you can expend one use of your knight's challenge ability to cause all your enemies within 100 feet with a CR greater than or equal to your character level minus 2 to make Will saves (DC 10 + 1/2 your class level + your Cha modifier). Creatures that fail this save are forced to attack you with their ranged or melee attacks in preference over other available targets. If a foe attacks by casting a spell or using a supernatural ability, he must target you with the attack or include you in the effect's area.

That would make me inclined to forbid the Knight class in my game.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 09:33:28 PM by kenada »

Eldmor

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Re: D&D 4e
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2008, 11:08:04 PM »
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Melee battlefield control would be setting yourself against a charge, making AoOs with side-effects, and other such things. Anything that makes non-magic melee combat more useful is always appreciated.
You can already set yourself against a charge (in 3e even). Am I missing something? Is melee combat (in 3.5e) really that useless?
It is that useless. There are a ludicrous amount of spells that simply shut down all melee combatants.
More importantly, all of these are 3.5e. It will simply make for a more fun game so that it's mechanically supported why enemies would want to attack certain characters at a glance instead of "he's wearing robes, so he must pewpewmissles!".
It makes more tactical sense to kill the apparent magic user than it does to beat on the heavily armored guy while everyone else kills you because the armored guy used some sort of magical ability to make you attack him. Unless the monster is of low intelligence, then it'll probably attack nearest thing.

As far as I'm concerned, whom the monster attacks should not be determined by mechanics. Aggro is a kludge in MMORPGs because terrain and positioning (by blocking movement) are typically not a factor in combat. In D&D, you should be using the terrain and formations to control the flow of battle, not artificial bullshit like aggro.
Blocking movement is not a viable tactic in D&D for most parties in most environments. Simply disabling front-liners or using a battlefield altering spell puts who the person wants open to be open.  Who monsters attack should have mechanical representation because there's no distinction given in the rules how much attention is grabbed by the person swinging a sword around you and bashing you with a shield than the person talking mumbo-jumbo over yonder that just shot a freezing blue beam at you. From experience with LARPing, I know I want to disable the spellcaster because they have the most options available to them. Just I'm engaged in melee and it's really hard to get out and move around both physically and mentally. This represents "real-life threat" and I feel it should have an effect in-game.

Edit: Found the Knight class

This is what I am talking about:
Quote
Test of Mettle (Ex): Starting at 4th level, you can shout a challenge to all enemies, calling out for the mightiest among them to face you in combat. Any target of this ability must have a language of some sort and an Intelligence score of 5 or higher. Creatures that do not meet these requirements are immune to the test of mettle. You must have line of sight and line of effect to the targets of this ability.

As a swift action, you can expend one use of your knight's challenge ability to cause all your enemies within 100 feet with a CR greater than or equal to your character level minus 2 to make Will saves (DC 10 + 1/2 your class level + your Cha modifier). Creatures that fail this save are forced to attack you with their ranged or melee attacks in preference over other available targets. If a foe attacks by casting a spell or using a supernatural ability, he must target you with the attack or include you in the effect's area.

That would make me inclined to forbid the Knight class in my game.
The Knight is by far one of the better melee classes. Just because it has a popular mechanic used in other systems doesn't mean you should OMGWTFWOWINMYD&D?! and give it the ban ticket. By a mechanical and background standpoint, it makes sense for someone with a great charisma in heroic games to be able to change the tide of battle. Another example is the Marshal. They have auras that grant several different bonuses to nearby allies/troops simply by their force of charisma and their training in war situations. This is also helping Charisma overcome it's current position of the every-person dump stat.

kenada

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Re: D&D 4e
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2008, 08:56:18 AM »
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Melee battlefield control would be setting yourself against a charge, making AoOs with side-effects, and other such things. Anything that makes non-magic melee combat more useful is always appreciated.
You can already set yourself against a charge (in 3e even). Am I missing something? Is melee combat (in 3.5e) really that useless?
It is that useless. There are a ludicrous amount of spells that simply shut down all melee combatants.
Can't the party's magic user counterspell these? In the extremely combat heavy games I've played in, melee just didn't get completely shut down all that often.

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That would make me inclined to forbid the Knight class in my game.
The Knight is by far one of the better melee classes. Just because it has a popular mechanic used in other systems doesn't mean you should OMGWTFWOWINMYD&D?! and give it the ban ticket.
The fact that it's a deficiency from MMORPGs infecting D&D isn't my primary problem with it (though it is one of them). My problem is that I seriously do not like things that dictate the flow of combat to that extent. If everything is defined by mechanics, then the DM's roll becomes little more than that of a human computer ensuring that the numbers are added up properly. That's really boring for me.

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By a mechanical and background standpoint, it makes sense for someone with a great charisma in heroic games to be able to change the tide of battle.
I can see why they might be great at rallying their side, but I don't agree that they should be able to dictate the flow of battle for everyone in every single one they fight.

Eldmor

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Re: D&D 4e
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2008, 11:49:05 AM »
Melee doesn't get shut down that often because only a few people know how to play spellcasters to their full extent. Here's a nifty little guide called Being Batman that illustrates why when played properly, wizard > everyone else. Counterspelling is a weak mechanic that never got any real support. The best counterspellers are actually Spellbane Clerics (a variant feature in Complete Mage).
What I feel will fix a lot of balance issues in 3.5e is that most things are switching to an x/encounter mechanic than the 3.5e x/day mechanic. The intended 4-5 encounters needed per day in 3.5e just isn't feasible for most campaigns considering some combats will take hours. Combat time is also being cut significantly in that everyone's going to be making less attacks. The Tome of Battle mechanic will be playing a huge role in this.
The Knight can certainly try to change the battle every encounter of the day but he has a limited number of challenges that may be spent better. The balancing factor is that Will save; will the enemy fall into his gallant words and shift their attention toward him? I understand your stance on his, but it mechanically hurts melee types even more than it needs to be.

Measure Zero

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Re: D&D 4e
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2008, 03:23:39 PM »
Note that I have not read anything about how this stuff works.  Even so, here is what I think, assuming that a Knight gets taunt as a x/encounter extraordinary ability that causes targets failing a will save to focus attacks on the user.

The same agro control mechanic exists now, only it requires a spellcaster to cast some kind of mind-affecting spell.  That is not a huge issue; a spell that causes enemies to hurt each other is available at first level, so I can't imagine that a spell that makes enemies think that a specific willing target is a big threat would be very high level.

So what if a Knight can taunt?  That's way better than what a Paladin can currently do, which is look shiny and hurt things that happen to be evil (and not, for instance, giant ants, velociraptors, elementals, or demons, I guess).  It spreads some of the control abilities around, which is good.  Right now, Fighters get pretty much nothing in that direction besides the idea that causing tons of damage makes things hate them.  There's nothing forcing you to do the math for agro control like WoW does; it's an extraordinary ability that mimics a weak spell.  Opposing it is like opposing Monks on the principle that they can have high AC without having to wear armor.  Pretty much every base class that is not Paladin, Fighter, Ranger, or Barbarian has some way of either taking the heat off or turning it up.  These classes are helpless, confined only by "attack of opportunity" rules, the CC spells of others, and the whim of the DM.  If the DM decides that a monster should attack the nonthreatening Bard instead of the Fighter that is kicking its ass, there is nothing that the fighter can do to stop it except kill it (which he will do, since the ant let him attack for so long).  Why wear all that armor when all it does is get monsters to attack the lower hp characters in your party?  Why play a fighter at all?

As far as dictating the flow of combat goes, compare this taunt with a Sleep spell or a Web spell.  With either of these, you shut down certain characters for one or more rounds.  Under certain circumstances, they can even be hit with a coup de grace!  A taunt doesn't even come close to that kind of power.  The higher level arcane CC spells are so much nastier, that successfully casting one pretty much ends a combat in your favor right there.  Being threatening is something a fighter-type should be able to do, and none can do it currently except by smashing things so hard that they can't ignore it.

Eldmor

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Re: D&D 4e
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2008, 04:46:05 PM »
In addition to what Measure Zero said, not even Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians, or Rangers are best at melee. It's the Cleric with it's ridiculous self-buffs that stack. Keep in mind they are also full divine casters.
Something is just off when something named Fighter isn't the best at "fighting" in a pure sense of the word. 4e will be helping fix this by melding together Fighter, Warblade, and Knight into the ultimate melee combatant that can keep things in his face.
As a side nore; I heard something interesting on the D&D podcast. Fighters have a talent (classes use multiple talent trees ala d20M instead of set class abilities, this means less classes and less headache) that lets them do their Strength in damage if they miss with an attack. This also represents that hit points are being abstracted in a mechanical sense, as in hp reduction does not necessarily mean being hit.

kenada

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Re: D&D 4e
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2008, 07:34:02 PM »
Melee doesn't get shut down that often because only a few people know how to play spellcasters to their full extent. Here's a nifty little guide called Being Batman that illustrates why when played properly, wizard > everyone else.
I think someone posted that in the /. discussion. Some of the stuff appears to require the use of *books. If people were happy with just the core books, then I would maybe consider it, but that won't happen. ;) I'm still extremely skeptical of "aggro" though.

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Counterspelling is a weak mechanic that never got any real support. The best counterspellers are actually Spellbane Clerics (a variant feature in Complete Mage).
I don't think I've ever seen someone actually counter-spell. :) Maybe it would be better if it worked like in Mage (counter-spelling is an immediate action that exhausts your initiative for that round). Any thoughts on that?

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What I feel will fix a lot of balance issues in 3.5e is that most things are switching to an x/encounter mechanic than the 3.5e x/day mechanic. The intended 4-5 encounters needed per day in 3.5e just isn't feasible for most campaigns considering some combats will take hours. Combat time is also being cut significantly in that everyone's going to be making less attacks. The Tome of Battle mechanic will be playing a huge role in this.
I've been wondering whether it might make sense to give people a bonus of 3 uses for an ability that can be used level/day (essentially giving those characters improved turning/song/etc for free). It treats those abilities similarly to skill points (where you get 4x for level 1) and allows a first level party to go through 4 encounters (assuming an ability is used once per encounter) before they have to stop for a rest.

Measure Zero

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Re: D&D 4e
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2008, 08:17:38 PM »
Counterspelling sucks because of the same spell/same school requirement, not because it requires the counterspeller to prepare it in advance.  If I want to counterspell some other mage's fireball, I either need to have dispel magic or fireball prepared, or some higher level evocation spell if I had the improved counterspell feat.  None of these options seems particularly good, especially not if I decided to take evocation as a forbidden school.

Why not give a mage a counterspell ability that works like turning undead? The counterspelling mage makes an Int (+caster level?)  check vs. 10 + the challenged spell's save DC (or perhaps a higher DC?), and then rolls counterspell damage dice to see how many spell levels were countered (a partial counter resulting in saving throw bonuses, damage mitigation, or other effects).  The mage would only be able to do this a few times a day or something, and this would replace his familiar class feature.

kenada

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Re: D&D 4e
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2008, 08:51:17 PM »
So what if a Knight can taunt?  That's way better than what a Paladin can currently do, which is look shiny and hurt things that happen to be evil (and not, for instance, giant ants, velociraptors, elementals, or demons, I guess).  It spreads some of the control abilities around, which is good.  Right now, Fighters get pretty much nothing in that direction besides the idea that causing tons of damage makes things hate them.  There's nothing forcing you to do the math for agro control like WoW does; it's an extraordinary ability that mimics a weak spell.
Except that it has a significantly higher range, no hit dice limit, and ignores spell resistance and immunities (due to its not being a spell). The lower level control spells are significantly more limited than Test of Mettle is. (Note that I would consider Test of Mettle somewhat more tolerable if monsters could take something like a level/4 penalty to attack and damage rolls if they chose to ignore the Knight even with a save.)

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Opposing it is like opposing Monks on the principle that they can have high AC without having to wear armor.
The balancing point with monks is that they suck. ;)

I've played a monk before, and while he had a 54 AC (IIRC), his actual combat abilities were much weaker compared to the fighters and barbarians in the party. I imagine this is why monks aren't making the initial cut in 4e.

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Pretty much every base class that is not Paladin, Fighter, Ranger, or Barbarian has some way of either taking the heat off or turning it up. These classes are helpless, confined only by "attack of opportunity" rules, the CC spells of others, and the whim of the DM.
Well, the fighter can trip or grapple it too. :P

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If the DM decides that a monster should attack the nonthreatening Bard instead of the Fighter that is kicking its ass, there is nothing that the fighter can do to stop it except kill it (which he will do, since the ant let him attack for so long).
;) Assuming you’re talking about Trever’s bard: In that situation, the monster was in the single digit hit points and would have died if the bard had done a bit more than minimum damage. It seemed entirely reasonable to me for the creature to retaliate against the one who nearly killed him before reengaging the fighter who had retreated from combat at that point.† While I didn’t intend to do enough damage to kill his character, I generally won’t pull punches when someone does something completely reckless.

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Why wear all that armor when all it does is get monsters to attack the lower hp characters in your party?  Why play a fighter at all?
A DM who has a policy of always attacking the weakest characters is abusively metagaming. It would be a sign to me that I should find a better DM or go play something else.

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As far as dictating the flow of combat goes, compare this taunt with a Sleep spell or a Web spell.  With either of these, you shut down certain characters for one or more rounds.  Under certain circumstances, they can even be hit with a coup de grace!  A taunt doesn't even come close to that kind of power. The higher level arcane CC spells are so much nastier, that successfully casting one pretty much ends a combat in your favor right there.
I would expect higher level magic to be nasty. I would also expect that there are things a magic user can do that a melee user can’t. Unfortunately, there doesn’t seem to be many things a melee fighter can do that a magic user can’t.

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Being threatening is something a fighter-type should be able to do, and none can do it currently except by smashing things so hard that they can't ignore it.
I might be reading this wrong, but it seems to me that you’re wanting it so that fighters should be able to stop people from going after the most dangerous target when they aren’t. That seems rather silly to me.


Counterspelling sucks because of the same spell/same school requirement, not because it requires the counterspeller to prepare it in advance.  If I want to counterspell some other mage's fireball, I either need to have dispel magic or fireball prepared, or some higher level evocation spell if I had the improved counterspell feat.
I could be convinced to give improved counterspell to magic users in addition to doing the other change, which is pretty close to (though not exactly like) Reactive Counterspell.

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None of these options seems particularly good, especially not if I decided to take evocation as a forbidden school.
That’s one of the downsides of specialization.

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Why not give a mage a counterspell ability that works like turning undead? The counterspelling mage makes an Int (+caster level?)  check vs. 10 + the challenged spell's save DC (or perhaps a higher DC?), and then rolls counterspell damage dice to see how many spell levels were countered (a partial counter resulting in saving throw bonuses, damage mitigation, or other effects).  The mage would only be able to do this a few times a day or something, and this would replace his familiar class feature.
I think high target DCs in that situation would make counterspelling still non-viable.

--
†I’m not sure I was doing leaving combat correctly Saturday. Upon checking the PH, it says that leaving a threatened square always provokes unless it is a 5ʹ step or a withdraw action.

Edit: Only needed one asterism.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2008, 09:01:31 PM by kenada »

kenada

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Re: D&D 4e
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2008, 09:00:33 PM »
In addition to what Measure Zero said, not even Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians, or Rangers are best at melee. It's the Cleric with it's ridiculous self-buffs that stack. Keep in mind they are also full divine casters.
Yeah, clerics are pretty broken.

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Something is just off when something named Fighter isn't the best at "fighting" in a pure sense of the word. 4e will be helping fix this by melding together Fighter, Warblade, and Knight into the ultimate melee combatant that can keep things in his face.
They could also fix this by nerfing magic users, which I think is more reasonable.

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As a side nore; I heard something interesting on the D&D podcast. Fighters have a talent (classes use multiple talent trees ala d20M instead of set class abilities, this means less classes and less headache)
That remains to be seen. I expect the shitload of books that will be published to mess everything up again.

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that lets them do their Strength in damage if they miss with an attack. This also represents that hit points are being abstracted in a mechanical sense, as in hp reduction does not necessarily mean being hit.
What problem are they trying to solve with this? Without the context, my only response is, “WTF?”
« Last Edit: February 20, 2008, 09:02:34 PM by kenada »

Eldmor

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Re: D&D 4e
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2008, 10:29:14 PM »
Who says magic users aren't going to be nerfed? From what I hear and speculate, they will also have an x/encounter mechanic for spells. I definitely know that Vancian casting is getting the boot. (Preparing spells in x slots of level y.) Spell levels are being expanded to actual character levels which will probably integrate with the new system.
The problem they're fixing with that talent is the fighter swinging and missing is the equivalent of the wizard casting a spell that fizzles or doesn't hit. The latter hardly ever happens, so always getting in some damage balances it.
About what you said for Test of Mettle:
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Except that it has a significantly higher range
Wrong! Sight and hearing. Spells have significantly longer distances than either of these.
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no hit dice limit
Neither does almost all crowd control spells. Test of Mettle is worse in this case in that the Knight is taking every single attack on who he Mettles instead of them being outright disabled. He could get too greedy and provoke too many HD of monsters and then die.
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and ignores spell resistance and immunities
Not having an Intelligence is an immunity. Having an Intelligence below 5 is also an immunity. Spell resistance is negligible in that the things that have it get it too late and people/monsters worried about it take Spell Penetration and maybe the Greater version. Lower level spells have much more utility in that you choose who to incapacitate, how you're going to take care of them, and you know exactly what you're doing. A Knight could Mettle what he knows are rogues, but then they pull out Wands of Knight Splode and he's screwed. This still falls under Mettle in that they are still affecting him with a melee attack, ranged attack, or spell.
Test of Mettle is an excellent mechanic that scales with level and seems very heroic fantasy.